Discussion:
Steam, assetto corsa and bootcamp
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Robert Peirce
2017-03-10 00:22:07 UTC
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I'm at a loss as to where to go with this so maybe somebody in this
group can help.

I want to install Windows in bootcamp strictly so I can run the Assetto
Corsa driving simulation. The problem is I am paranoid and believe in
frequent backups, which I can't do in bootcamp without adding hard
drives, backup software, etc.

My solution is to keep everything in a download directory in my Mac
partition and install it in windows from a flash drive, which is pretty
much the way bootcamp does it.

This would be fine for a simple executable that I could drag-and-drop
but I have been told, perhaps wrongly, that I have to download this
software directly to the bootcamp partition using the steam app, which
also must be installed in the partition.

Is that the only way to do it or is there a way to download the software
to the mac as outlined above?
Jolly Roger
2017-03-10 15:47:31 UTC
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Post by Robert Peirce
I'm at a loss as to where to go with this so maybe somebody in this
group can help.
I want to install Windows in bootcamp strictly so I can run the Assetto
Corsa driving simulation.
Have you considered running it instead in VMware Fusion or Parallels
Desktop?
Post by Robert Peirce
The problem is I am paranoid and believe in
frequent backups, which I can't do in bootcamp without adding hard
drives, backup software, etc.
With a VM, you could just let Time Machine back them up.
Post by Robert Peirce
My solution is to keep everything in a download directory in my Mac
partition and install it in windows from a flash drive, which is pretty
much the way bootcamp does it.
This would be fine for a simple executable that I could drag-and-drop
but I have been told, perhaps wrongly, that I have to download this
software directly to the bootcamp partition using the steam app, which
also must be installed in the partition.
Is that the only way to do it or is there a way to download the software
to the mac as outlined above?
Are you new to Steam? The way Steam works is you install the Steam app,
run it, buy and install the games you want within the Steam app. I don't
recall how it is for Windows (probably the same), but on Mac, once
you've installed a game, it appears in your Applications folder (or
wherever you have the Steam app) as a separate icon that you can
double-click to start the game from outside of the Steam app.
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Robert Peirce
2017-03-10 17:09:13 UTC
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Post by Jolly Roger
Have you considered running it instead in VMware Fusion or Parallels
Desktop?
I did but it is my understanding the overhead slows things down and that
is not the case with bootcamp. However, I don't know that, so what's the
real story? Obviously, one of these emulators would solve all my
problems if they would work well for me.
Post by Jolly Roger
Are you new to Steam? The way Steam works is you install the Steam app,
run it, buy and install the games you want within the Steam app. I don't
recall how it is for Windows (probably the same), but on Mac, once
you've installed a game, it appears in your Applications folder (or
wherever you have the Steam app) as a separate icon that you can
double-click to start the game from outside of the Steam app.
I know nothing about Steam. In the past, when I bought a program from
anybody it either came with an installer or it was simple drag-and-drop.
I experimented with the bootcamp installation and that seems to work
the same. I copied an installer program from a flash drive, executed it
and the program was installed as hoped. Therefore, I could keep the
installer program on my Mac and re-use it as needed, but I couldn't keep
the final program on my Mac, which is what I want to do. That's the
issue with Assetto Corsa. Again, a suitable emulator would eliminate
this problem. So please tell me they would work for me!!
Jolly Roger
2017-03-10 17:51:45 UTC
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Post by Robert Peirce
Post by Jolly Roger
Have you considered running it instead in VMware Fusion or Parallels
Desktop?
I did but it is my understanding the overhead slows things down and
that is not the case with bootcamp.
Not necessarily, no - definitely not as a rule.
Post by Robert Peirce
However, I don't know that, so what's the real story? Obviously, one
of these emulators would solve all my problems if they would work well
for me.
The vast majority of Windows applications run very speedily with almost
no speed decrease in a VM. Games may or may not run well, but whether
they run well depends on the requirements of each app. Some games run
fine, others need direct access to the video hardware for best
performance. Unless you happen to find someone else who is running that
exact game through Steam in a VM, you just have to try it for yourself.
You'd have to purchase Fusion/Desktop, but you won't have to mess with
partitions or Boot Camp, and you won't have to restart to run Windows
stuff.
Post by Robert Peirce
Post by Jolly Roger
Are you new to Steam? The way Steam works is you install the Steam
app, run it, buy and install the games you want within the Steam app.
I don't recall how it is for Windows (probably the same), but on Mac,
once you've installed a game, it appears in your Applications folder
(or wherever you have the Steam app) as a separate icon that you can
double-click to start the game from outside of the Steam app.
I know nothing about Steam. In the past, when I bought a program from
anybody it either came with an installer or it was simple
drag-and-drop.
That's not how Steam games work. You have to purchase and install Steam
games from within the Steam application.
Post by Robert Peirce
I experimented with the bootcamp installation and that seems to work
the same. I copied an installer program from a flash drive,
executed it and the program was installed as hoped. Therefore, I
could keep the installer program on my Mac and re-use it as needed,
but I couldn't keep the final program on my Mac, which is what I
want to do. That's the issue with Assetto Corsa.
It's hard to figure out exactly what you are trying to say here. Again,
with Steam, the Steam application itself *is* the installer. So if you
want to re-install a Steam game, you run the Steam application and
install it from there. On Steam for Mac, once a game is installed, an
icon appears for that game next to the Steam application icon. You can
double-click that icon to run the game from outside of the Steam
application from that point onward.
Post by Robert Peirce
Again, a suitable emulator would eliminate this problem. So please
tell me they would work for me!!
Virtual machines are *not* emulators!
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Elden
2017-08-30 18:22:19 UTC
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... Unless you happen to find someone else who is running that exact
game through Steam in a VM, you just have to try it for yourself.
You'd have to purchase Fusion/Desktop, but you won't have to mess with
partitions or Boot Camp, and you won't have to restart to run
Windows stuff.
There is a trial version of VMware Fusion.
--
-=Elden=-
Jolly Roger
2017-08-31 00:11:20 UTC
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Post by Elden
... Unless you happen to find someone else who is running that exact
game through Steam in a VM, you just have to try it for yourself.
You'd have to purchase Fusion/Desktop, but you won't have to mess with
partitions or Boot Camp, and you won't have to restart to run
Windows stuff.
There is a trial version of VMware Fusion.
Good to know!
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Elden
2017-08-31 21:10:38 UTC
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Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Elden
There is a trial version of VMware Fusion.
Good to know!
And in theory, one could throw a "trial" version of Windows on there by
simply postponing activation. But as others have said, performance in a
VM is so bad it's not worth messing with.

I jacked my RAM up to 32GB and paid for VMware and a full copy of
Windows 10. Still not sure why. It was something to do. And playing with
various versions of Linux can be somewhat entertaining.

But I suppose it's great for someone that absolutely must have the
ability to run a Windows program on a Mac. I can't imagine any
particular program that I wouldn't just rather do without.
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nospam
2017-08-31 21:13:30 UTC
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Post by Elden
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Elden
There is a trial version of VMware Fusion.
Good to know!
And in theory, one could throw a "trial" version of Windows on there by
simply postponing activation. But as others have said, performance in a
VM is so bad it's not worth messing with.
nonsense.

performance in a vm is as good as native, other than something like
hardcore gaming.
Elden
2017-09-01 02:19:22 UTC
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Post by nospam
Post by Elden
And in theory, one could throw a "trial" version of Windows on there by
simply postponing activation. But as others have said, performance in a
VM is so bad it's not worth messing with.
nonsense.
performance in a vm is as good as native, other than something like
hardcore gaming.
Yes, and gaming is the context of this conversation.
--
-=Elden=-
Jolly Roger
2017-09-02 16:29:02 UTC
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Post by Elden
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Elden
There is a trial version of VMware Fusion.
Good to know!
And in theory, one could throw a "trial" version of Windows on there by
simply postponing activation. But as others have said, performance in a
VM is so bad it's not worth messing with.
Nah. VM performance is fantastic! The only exception is apps that need
direct access to the graphic processing unit, like 3D games.
Post by Elden
I jacked my RAM up to 32GB and paid for VMware and a full copy of
Windows 10. Still not sure why.
Yeah? I don't make purchases for no reason; but whatever floats your
boat.

It was something to do. And playing with
Post by Elden
various versions of Linux can be somewhat entertaining.
Linux is the last thing I would purchase a virtual machine for. macOS is
close enough to Linux that there's little need for such a thing.
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Calum
2017-03-10 20:07:20 UTC
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Post by Robert Peirce
Post by Jolly Roger
Have you considered running it instead in VMware Fusion or Parallels
Desktop?
I did but it is my understanding the overhead slows things down and that
is not the case with bootcamp. However, I don't know that, so what's the
real story? Obviously, one of these emulators would solve all my
problems if they would work well for me.
I play a lot of driving sims in BootCamp (including AC), and none of
them come remotely close to being playable in Fusion or Parallels, if
they even start up at all. So don't waste your time trying.

Steam games do need to be installed directly from the Steam client, in
Windows.

For backing up the Boot Camp partition, I used to use a handly little
free app from Paragon called (funnily enough) BootCamp Backup. It was
nice because it ran in OS X, and incrementally backed up your BC
partition to any destination of your choice.

Unfortunately they've discontinued it and it no longer seems to work
properly. Similar functionality now seems to be part of their Hard Disk
Manager for Mac, which costs $40, but I haven't tried that.
deKay
2017-03-10 21:06:08 UTC
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Soni tempori elseu romani yeof helsforo nisson ol sefini ill des Fri, 10 Mar
2017 20:07:20 +0000, sefini jorgo geanyet des mani yeof do comp.sys.mac.misc,
Post by Calum
Post by Robert Peirce
Post by Jolly Roger
Have you considered running it instead in VMware Fusion or Parallels
Desktop?
I did but it is my understanding the overhead slows things down and that
is not the case with bootcamp. However, I don't know that, so what's the
real story? Obviously, one of these emulators would solve all my
problems if they would work well for me.
I play a lot of driving sims in BootCamp (including AC), and none of
them come remotely close to being playable in Fusion or Parallels, if
they even start up at all. So don't waste your time trying.
Steam games do need to be installed directly from the Steam client, in
Windows.
For backing up the Boot Camp partition, I used to use a handly little
free app from Paragon called (funnily enough) BootCamp Backup. It was
nice because it ran in OS X, and incrementally backed up your BC
partition to any destination of your choice.
Unfortunately they've discontinued it and it no longer seems to work
properly. Similar functionality now seems to be part of their Hard Disk
Manager for Mac, which costs $40, but I haven't tried that.
I'm not sure there's much to actually back up in Bootcamp. Windows can be
reinstalled. Steam and the game can be too. The only thing you'd need to keep
is the Assetto Corsa save file itself, if that's important. You could just get
a OneDrive, Dropbox or Google Drive account and back it up there from within
Windows.

FWIW I have Steam on Bootcamp and backup my saves to my Synology NAS with the
supplied Cloud Drive software. I also back them up from macOS (along with
other stuff also on Bootcamp) using Crashplan.

You could also have a script that copies them every so often from your
Bootcamp drive to your macOS drive, which in turn is backed up via
(presumably) Time Machine.

deKay
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Robert Peirce
2017-03-11 12:49:06 UTC
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Post by deKay
I'm not sure there's much to actually back up in Bootcamp. Windows can be
reinstalled. Steam and the game can be too. The only thing you'd need to keep
is the Assetto Corsa save file itself, if that's important. You could just get
a OneDrive, Dropbox or Google Drive account and back it up there from within
Windows.
That was my thought. I figured I could dump any important volatile
stuff to a flash drive.
Post by deKay
You could also have a script that copies them every so often from your
Bootcamp drive to your macOS drive, which in turn is backed up via
(presumably) Time Machine.
Okay. I didn't know that was possible. What's the procedure? I didn't
think OS X could read a bootcamp partition.
deKay
2017-03-13 12:03:02 UTC
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Soni tempori elseu romani yeof helsforo nisson ol sefini ill des Sat, 11 Mar
2017 07:49:06 -0500, sefini jorgo geanyet des mani yeof do comp.sys.mac.misc,
Post by Robert Peirce
Post by deKay
You could also have a script that copies them every so often from your
Bootcamp drive to your macOS drive, which in turn is backed up via
(presumably) Time Machine.
Okay. I didn't know that was possible. What's the procedure? I didn't
think OS X could read a bootcamp partition.
Read, yes. Write, no (not by default, anyway). It literally just appears as a
separate drive.



deKay
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Gaming Diary - http://lofi-gaming.org.uk/diary
Blog - http://lofi-gaming.org.uk/blog
My computer runs at 3.5MHz and I'm proud of that
Robert Peirce
2017-03-11 12:45:45 UTC
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Post by Calum
I play a lot of driving sims in BootCamp (including AC), and none of
them come remotely close to being playable in Fusion or Parallels, if
they even start up at all. So don't waste your time trying.
Good to know about Parallels before I worry about trying it.

I did try putting Assetto Corsa on a bootcamp partition and discovered
it wasn't large enough. Apparently AC needs 20-30Gb free. I have a
256Gb SSD and can't spare the space. The solution at this point is to
install a larger drive or to get a computer just for gaming. An add-on
drive is another option but less suitable for carrying about.
Robert Peirce
2017-03-11 17:02:31 UTC
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Post by Calum
I play a lot of driving sims in BootCamp (including AC), and none of
them come remotely close to being playable in Fusion or Parallels, if
they even start up at all. So don't waste your time trying.
I forgot a most important question. How might AC work for me in
bootcamp? I have a Mid 2012 MBP Retina with a 2.3GHz i7 and the Nvidia
GeForce GT 650M, whatever that is!


I've been checking and it appears it is pretty easy to swap out an SSD
for a larger unit for not much money. I cold easily go to 1Tb and split
it down the middle.
David Empson
2017-03-12 01:41:50 UTC
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Post by Robert Peirce
Post by Calum
I play a lot of driving sims in BootCamp (including AC), and none of
them come remotely close to being playable in Fusion or Parallels, if
they even start up at all. So don't waste your time trying.
I forgot a most important question. How might AC work for me in
bootcamp? I have a Mid 2012 MBP Retina with a 2.3GHz i7 and the Nvidia
GeForce GT 650M, whatever that is!
See the system requirements and recommendations:

http://store.steampowered.com/app/244210

At a glance, the only question mark is whether the GeForce GT 650M is
going to meet the minimum requirements. You'd need to work out whether
it is at least as good as the GeForce GT 460 (non-mobile). I wouldn't
expect the graphics to get anywhere near the recommended level (e.g.
GeForce GTX 970).

You should be able to find graphics benchmarks via online searches, e.g.
Anandtech might have something relevant. That should give some idea.
Post by Robert Peirce
I've been checking and it appears it is pretty easy to swap out an SSD
for a larger unit for not much money.
Have you been looking at the details for the right model? Retina MacBook
Pros have proprietary Apple solid state drive modules (they do not use
2.5-inch SATA drives), and Apple doesn't sell aftermarket capacity
upgrades.

As far as I know, there is only one range of third party SSDs available,
from Other World Computing.

https://eshop.macsales.com/upgrades/macbook-pro-retina-15-inch-late-2012-2.3-ghz/internal-drives

(Yes, I know the URL mentions "15-inch late 2012" which doesn't exist
but that is just a minor error in OWC's categories - these are SSDs for
the first generation of Retina MacBook Pro hardware: June 2012 15-inch
model, October 2012 13-inch model, and the January 2013 minor updates of
both.)

Here is iFixit's guide:

https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Pro+15-Inch+Retina+Display+Mid+2012+SSD+Replacement/9706
Post by Robert Peirce
I cold easily go to 1Tb and split it down the middle.
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Andreas Rutishauser
2017-03-12 06:13:13 UTC
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Post by David Empson
As far as I know, there is only one range of third party SSDs available,
from Other World Computing.
https://eshop.macsales.com/upgrades/macbook-pro-retina-15-inch-late-2012-2.3-g
hz/internal-drives
Transcend has similar offers:
<https://www.transcend-info.com/apple/jetdrive/>
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David Empson
2017-03-12 07:02:07 UTC
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Post by Andreas Rutishauser
Post by David Empson
As far as I know, there is only one range of third party SSDs available,
from Other World Computing.
https://eshop.macsales.com/upgrades/macbook-pro-retina-15-inch-late-2012
h-2.3-g z/internal-drives
<https://www.transcend-info.com/apple/jetdrive/>
Thanks for the correction. I hadn't noticed Transcend had done a range
for the Mid 2012 to Early 2013 Retina MacBook Pro.

Another small correction to my previous post: the drive module in the
Mid 2012 to Early 2013 Retina MacBook Pro does use SATA (but it still
isn't a 2.5-inch form factor). It is the later models (Late 2013 and
newer) which use PCIe.
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Robert Peirce
2017-03-12 15:35:11 UTC
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Post by Andreas Rutishauser
Post by David Empson
As far as I know, there is only one range of third party SSDs available,
from Other World Computing.
https://eshop.macsales.com/upgrades/macbook-pro-retina-15-inch-late-2012-2.3-g
hz/internal-drives
This seems to be the same item OWC sells and at the same price.
Post by Andreas Rutishauser
<https://www.transcend-info.com/apple/jetdrive/>
This is interesting but considerably more expensive.
Jolly Roger
2017-03-12 16:13:29 UTC
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Post by Robert Peirce
Post by David Empson
As far as I know, there is only one range of third party SSDs available,
from Other World Computing.
https://eshop.macsales.com/upgrades/macbook-pro-retina-15-inch-late-2012-2.3-g
hz/internal-drives
This seems to be the same item OWC sells and at the same price.
macsales.com is OWC's web site.
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Robert Peirce
2017-03-12 16:24:56 UTC
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Post by David Empson
http://store.steampowered.com/app/244210
Did that, hence the curiosity about the GT 650M
Post by David Empson
At a glance, the only question mark is whether the GeForce GT 650M is
going to meet the minimum requirements. You'd need to work out whether
it is at least as good as the GeForce GT 460 (non-mobile). I wouldn't
expect the graphics to get anywhere near the recommended level (e.g.
GeForce GTX 970).
I found a comparison site and the GTX 970 is about 600% faster. It
ranked 24 of 535 GPUs tested. The GT 650M ranked 195.

However, I found another site that suggested AC is more CPU intensive
than GPU. So, I guess the question remains. If you are running AC on a
MBP, are you getting good results? If so, I can get a bigger drive. If
not, I may have to buy a PC.
Jolly Roger
2017-03-12 16:34:13 UTC
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Post by Robert Peirce
Post by David Empson
http://store.steampowered.com/app/244210
Did that, hence the curiosity about the GT 650M
Post by David Empson
At a glance, the only question mark is whether the GeForce GT 650M is
going to meet the minimum requirements. You'd need to work out whether
it is at least as good as the GeForce GT 460 (non-mobile). I wouldn't
expect the graphics to get anywhere near the recommended level (e.g.
GeForce GTX 970).
I found a comparison site and the GTX 970 is about 600% faster. It
ranked 24 of 535 GPUs tested. The GT 650M ranked 195.
However, I found another site that suggested AC is more CPU intensive
than GPU. So, I guess the question remains. If you are running AC on a
MBP, are you getting good results? If so, I can get a bigger drive. If
not, I may have to buy a PC.
Define "good results". ; ) In most games you can adjust the resolution
to a lower setting to increase performance. Depending on your graphics
card and display, the resolution you choose may be lower or higher,
which will in turn affect performance (video refresh rates). There's
little doubt your GT 650M will perform well at lower resolutions, and
probably not as well as other cards with higher resolutions. Assuming
the game you want to play allows you to adjust the resolution (most do)
it should be fairly easy for you to find a sweet spot between the two
extremes.
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