Discussion:
AFS & Old Case Sensitive FS
(too old to reply)
Ant
2017-10-10 20:56:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hello.

Do I assume AFS will have no problems with Mac OS' old case sensitive FS?

Thank you in advance. :)
--
Quote of the Week: "The ant's a centaur in his dragon world. Pull down thy vanity, it is not man... Made courage, or made order, or made grace,... Pull down thy vanity, I say pull down. Learn of the green world what can be thy place... In scaled invention or true artistry,... Pull down thy vanity,... Paquin pull down! The green casque has outdone your elegance." --Ezra Pound's poem
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
/ /\ /\ \ Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
| |o o| |
\ _ / Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail privately. If credit-
( ) ing, then please kindly use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
David Empson
2017-10-10 23:52:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ant
Hello.
Do I assume AFS will have no problems with Mac OS' old case sensitive FS?
I assume you mean APFS, the new file system in macOS High Sierra.

If so you are probably asking the wrong question.

If you have an existing volume which uses the "Mac OS Extended
(Case-sensitive)" file system and you upgrade to macOS High Sierra, that
file system will still work.

APFS does not come into it unless you manually convert the volume to
APFS, or the OS does that automatically.

APFS also has a case-sensitive variant, so even if your case-sensitive
volume was converted to APFS it would still be case-sensitive.

As of the initial release of High Sierra, automatic conversion to APFS
is only done for the volume on which High Sierra is being installed, and
then only if the installer identifies that the volume is on a solid
state drive (excluding Fusion drives).

Based on anecodatal reports it seems to be consistently recognising and
auto converting internal SSDs (both Apple and third party) but not
recognising SSDs in external enclosures connected via USB or Firewire.

That leaves the question of why you think you need a case-sensitive file
system. That is not the default for Macs, and some Mac software doesn't
work on case-sensitive file systems.
--
David Empson
***@actrix.gen.nz
Bernd Fröhlich
2017-10-11 07:01:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Empson
APFS does not come into it unless you manually convert the volume to
APFS, or the OS does that automatically.
Interestingly TimeMachine converts an external HD that is formattet as
APFS back to HFS+ if you use it as TimeMachine volume (at least it did
over here).
David Empson
2017-10-12 00:19:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bernd Fröhlich
Post by David Empson
APFS does not come into it unless you manually convert the volume to
APFS, or the OS does that automatically.
Interestingly TimeMachine converts an external HD that is formattet as
APFS back to HFS+ if you use it as TimeMachine volume (at least it did
over here).
TM doesn't support APFS on the backup drive yet, so if you were setting
up a new backup drive and it was already formatted as APFS, then TM
would ask to erase it.

TM _does_ support backing up from an APFS volume to an HFS+ backup
drive. It is just the backup drive itself which can't be APFS yet.

The priority for High Sierra was getting APFS working on the startup
drive with the existing feature set. They have got that far with SSDs,
still have Fusion drives to go (and hard drives, if Apple thinks it is
worth the effort).

A full APFS-based TM implementation will come later.
--
David Empson
***@actrix.gen.nz
nospam
2017-10-12 02:25:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Empson
A full APFS-based TM implementation will come later.
something which can't happen soon enough. time machine as it exists now
is a complete hackjob.
Huge
2017-10-12 07:52:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Empson
Post by Bernd Fröhlich
Post by David Empson
APFS does not come into it unless you manually convert the volume to
APFS, or the OS does that automatically.
Interestingly TimeMachine converts an external HD that is formattet as
APFS back to HFS+ if you use it as TimeMachine volume (at least it did
over here).
TM doesn't support APFS on the backup drive yet, so if you were setting
up a new backup drive and it was already formatted as APFS, then TM
would ask to erase it.
TM _does_ support backing up from an APFS volume to an HFS+ backup
drive. It is just the backup drive itself which can't be APFS yet.
The priority for High Sierra was getting APFS working on the startup
drive with the existing feature set. They have got that far with SSDs,
still have Fusion drives to go (and hard drives, if Apple thinks it is
worth the effort).
A full APFS-based TM implementation will come later.
Should one therefore wait until it does?
--
Today is Setting Orange, the 66th day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3183
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
Huge
2017-10-11 09:21:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2017-10-10, David Empson <***@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:

[28 lines snipped]
Post by David Empson
That leaves the question of why you think you need a case-sensitive file
system.
[Skipping over the fact that this is a religious issue]

I for one bought a Mac because it's "Unix inside" and Unix traditionally
has case sensitive file systems. I find the lack of it irritating. And
yes, I know I could trash my system and start again, but who can be arsed
with that?
Post by David Empson
That is not the default for Macs,
More's the pity.
Post by David Empson
and some Mac software doesn't
work on case-sensitive file systems.
Which?
--
Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 65th day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3183
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
Chris Ridd
2017-10-11 11:50:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Huge
[28 lines snipped]
Post by David Empson
That leaves the question of why you think you need a case-sensitive file
system.
[Skipping over the fact that this is a religious issue]
I for one bought a Mac because it's "Unix inside" and Unix traditionally
has case sensitive file systems. I find the lack of it irritating. And
yes, I know I could trash my system and start again, but who can be arsed
with that?
Post by David Empson
That is not the default for Macs,
More's the pity.
Post by David Empson
and some Mac software doesn't
work on case-sensitive file systems.
Which?
Often games don't. Adobe software doesn't work either.

I don't really blame them for not bothering to address the 0.1% of the
market that uses case-sensitive filesystems... but these things are
often really really easy for the developer to fix. Sigh.
--
Chris
Huge
2017-10-11 11:56:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Chris Ridd
Post by Huge
[28 lines snipped]
Post by David Empson
That leaves the question of why you think you need a case-sensitive file
system.
[Skipping over the fact that this is a religious issue]
I for one bought a Mac because it's "Unix inside" and Unix traditionally
has case sensitive file systems. I find the lack of it irritating. And
yes, I know I could trash my system and start again, but who can be arsed
with that?
Post by David Empson
That is not the default for Macs,
More's the pity.
Post by David Empson
and some Mac software doesn't
work on case-sensitive file systems.
Which?
Often games don't. Adobe software doesn't work either.
Oh, OK, thanks. Don't care about either of those.
Post by Chris Ridd
I don't really blame them for not bothering to address the 0.1% of the
market that uses case-sensitive filesystems...
0.1% on Mac, maybe.
Post by Chris Ridd
but these things are
often really really easy for the developer to fix. Sigh.
Indeed. But how often do you say that to yourself every day?
--
Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 65th day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3183
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
Chris Ridd
2017-10-11 21:00:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Huge
Post by Chris Ridd
I don't really blame them for not bothering to address the 0.1% of the
market that uses case-sensitive filesystems...
0.1% on Mac, maybe.
Indeed. Games and Adobe apps are ported across from Windows, and approx
0% of Windows uses case-sensitive filesystems.
Post by Huge
Post by Chris Ridd
but these things are
often really really easy for the developer to fix. Sigh.
Indeed. But how often do you say that to yourself every day?
Too often.
--
Chris
nospam
2017-10-11 12:47:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Chris Ridd
Post by Huge
Post by David Empson
and some Mac software doesn't
work on case-sensitive file systems.
Which?
Often games don't. Adobe software doesn't work either.
I don't really blame them for not bothering to address the 0.1% of the
market that uses case-sensitive filesystems...
exactly. there are far more important things to do.
Post by Chris Ridd
but these things are
often really really easy for the developer to fix. Sigh.
no they aren't. in adobe's case, it's actually quite a bit of work.
android
2017-10-11 12:41:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Huge
[28 lines snipped]
Post by David Empson
That leaves the question of why you think you need a case-sensitive file
system.
[Skipping over the fact that this is a religious issue]
I for one bought a Mac because it's "Unix inside" and Unix traditionally
has case sensitive file systems. I find the lack of it irritating. And
yes, I know I could trash my system and start again, but who can be arsed
with that?
Post by David Empson
That is not the default for Macs,
More's the pity.
Post by David Empson
and some Mac software doesn't
work on case-sensitive file systems.
Which?
Adobe CC...
--
teleportation kills
Huge
2017-10-11 15:45:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by android
Post by Huge
[28 lines snipped]
Post by David Empson
That leaves the question of why you think you need a case-sensitive file
system.
[Skipping over the fact that this is a religious issue]
I for one bought a Mac because it's "Unix inside" and Unix traditionally
has case sensitive file systems. I find the lack of it irritating. And
yes, I know I could trash my system and start again, but who can be arsed
with that?
Post by David Empson
That is not the default for Macs,
More's the pity.
Post by David Empson
and some Mac software doesn't
work on case-sensitive file systems.
Which?
Adobe CC...
Well, as I said, I care not at all about Adobe products.
--
Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 65th day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3183
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
Jolly Roger
2017-10-11 15:27:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Huge
[28 lines snipped]
Post by David Empson
That leaves the question of why you think you need a case-sensitive file
system.
[Skipping over the fact that this is a religious issue]
I for one bought a Mac because it's "Unix inside" and Unix traditionally
has case sensitive file systems. I find the lack of it irritating.
How is it irritating? Or is it just a question of religion for you?
Post by Huge
Post by David Empson
That is not the default for Macs,
More's the pity.
Nope, it works great and most people are fine with it. You are in the very
tiny minority.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Huge
2017-10-11 15:46:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Huge
[28 lines snipped]
Post by David Empson
That leaves the question of why you think you need a case-sensitive file
system.
[Skipping over the fact that this is a religious issue]
I for one bought a Mac because it's "Unix inside" and Unix traditionally
has case sensitive file systems. I find the lack of it irritating.
How is it irritating? Or is it just a question of religion for you?
Post by Huge
Post by David Empson
That is not the default for Macs,
More's the pity.
Nope, it works great
FSVO "great".
Post by Jolly Roger
and most people are fine with it. You are in the very
tiny minority.
I'm afraid the 60,000,000 flies argument (which has it that shit is a tasty
and nutritious meal) carries no weight with me whatsoever.
--
Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 65th day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3183
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
Jolly Roger
2017-10-11 17:10:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Huge
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Huge
[28 lines snipped]
Post by David Empson
That leaves the question of why you think you need a case-sensitive file
system.
[Skipping over the fact that this is a religious issue]
I for one bought a Mac because it's "Unix inside" and Unix traditionally
has case sensitive file systems. I find the lack of it irritating.
How is it irritating? Or is it just a question of religion for you?
Post by Huge
Post by David Empson
That is not the default for Macs,
More's the pity.
Nope, it works great
FSVO "great".
Yet you haven't been able to explain how it's supposedly not great. I
smell a zealot.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Huge
2017-10-11 17:13:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Huge
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Huge
[28 lines snipped]
Post by David Empson
That leaves the question of why you think you need a case-sensitive file
system.
[Skipping over the fact that this is a religious issue]
I for one bought a Mac because it's "Unix inside" and Unix traditionally
has case sensitive file systems. I find the lack of it irritating.
How is it irritating? Or is it just a question of religion for you?
Post by Huge
Post by David Empson
That is not the default for Macs,
More's the pity.
Nope, it works great
FSVO "great".
Yet you haven't been able to explain how it's supposedly not great.
It does not distinguish between files that I have specifically made
different. (*) Pretty standard "Apple knows best" bollocks.

(* This is the part where you tell me it doesn't matter.)
Post by Jolly Roger
I
smell a zealot.
Standard fan-boi response to anyone who criticises Apple for anything.
--
Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 65th day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3183
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
Jolly Roger
2017-10-11 17:19:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Huge
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Huge
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Huge
[28 lines snipped]
Post by David Empson
That leaves the question of why you think you need a case-sensitive file
system.
[Skipping over the fact that this is a religious issue]
I for one bought a Mac because it's "Unix inside" and Unix traditionally
has case sensitive file systems. I find the lack of it irritating.
How is it irritating? Or is it just a question of religion for you?
Post by Huge
Post by David Empson
That is not the default for Macs,
More's the pity.
Nope, it works great
FSVO "great".
Yet you haven't been able to explain how it's supposedly not great.
It does not distinguish between files that I have specifically made
different.
So pure zealotry, as suspected. Got it.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Huge
2017-10-11 18:59:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Huge
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Huge
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Huge
[28 lines snipped]
Post by David Empson
That leaves the question of why you think you need a case-sensitive file
system.
[Skipping over the fact that this is a religious issue]
I for one bought a Mac because it's "Unix inside" and Unix traditionally
has case sensitive file systems. I find the lack of it irritating.
How is it irritating? Or is it just a question of religion for you?
Post by Huge
Post by David Empson
That is not the default for Macs,
More's the pity.
Nope, it works great
FSVO "great".
Yet you haven't been able to explain how it's supposedly not great.
It does not distinguish between files that I have specifically made
different.
So pure zealotry, as suspected.
Wrong. Totally, utterly, completely and absolutely wrong. And moronic
to boot.
Post by Jolly Roger
Got it.
The only thing you've got is being a cunt. I note you deleted the bits
where I pointed out that you're a moronic, bigoted fanboi. Oh, well,
you came out of the killfile during the recent tidy but now I know why
you were there and you're going right back in. Back to sucking Steve
Jobs cock for you.
--
Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 65th day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3183
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
Jolly Roger
2017-10-11 19:34:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Huge
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Huge
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Huge
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Huge
[28 lines snipped]
Post by David Empson
That leaves the question of why you think you need a case-sensitive file
system.
[Skipping over the fact that this is a religious issue]
I for one bought a Mac because it's "Unix inside" and Unix traditionally
has case sensitive file systems. I find the lack of it irritating.
How is it irritating? Or is it just a question of religion for you?
Post by Huge
Post by David Empson
That is not the default for Macs,
More's the pity.
Nope, it works great
FSVO "great".
Yet you haven't been able to explain how it's supposedly not great.
It does not distinguish between files that I have specifically made
different.
So pure zealotry, as suspected.
Wrong.
Nope. Those of us who are not case sensitivity zealots have absolutely
no problem with the fact that Macs typically come with system volumes
formatted without case sensitivity because it causes exactly ZERO
issues. Meanwhile, unsurprisingly, you still haven't been able to show
an objectively verified issue supposedly caused by Macs not using
case-sensitive file systems.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
nospam
2017-10-11 19:40:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Huge
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Huge
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Huge
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Huge
Post by David Empson
That leaves the question of why you think you need a case-sensitive
file system.
[Skipping over the fact that this is a religious issue]
I for one bought a Mac because it's "Unix inside" and Unix traditionally
has case sensitive file systems. I find the lack of it irritating.
How is it irritating? Or is it just a question of religion for you?
Post by Huge
Post by David Empson
That is not the default for Macs,
More's the pity.
Nope, it works great
FSVO "great".
Yet you haven't been able to explain how it's supposedly not great.
It does not distinguish between files that I have specifically made
different.
So pure zealotry, as suspected.
Wrong.
Nope. Those of us who are not case sensitivity zealots have absolutely
no problem with the fact that Macs typically come with system volumes
formatted without case sensitivity because it causes exactly ZERO
issues. Meanwhile, unsurprisingly, you still haven't been able to show
an objectively verified issue supposedly caused by Macs not using
case-sensitive file systems.
and those who want a case-sensitive file system can easily do so.

apple isn't blocking that, nor are they forcing case-insensitive.

by his own admission, he "can't be arsed" to reformat.
Post by Jolly Roger
I for one bought a Mac because it's "Unix inside" and Unix traditionally
has case sensitive file systems. I find the lack of it irritating. And
yes, I know I could trash my system and start again, but who can be arsed
with that?
in other words, it's a problem entirely of his own making, then blaming
apple for his laziness.
nospam
2017-10-11 17:31:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Huge
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Huge
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Huge
I for one bought a Mac because it's "Unix inside" and Unix traditionally
has case sensitive file systems. I find the lack of it irritating.
How is it irritating? Or is it just a question of religion for you?
Post by Huge
Post by David Empson
That is not the default for Macs,
More's the pity.
Nope, it works great
FSVO "great".
Yet you haven't been able to explain how it's supposedly not great.
It does not distinguish between files that I have specifically made
different. (*) Pretty standard "Apple knows best" bollocks.
(* This is the part where you tell me it doesn't matter.)
no, this is the part where we tell you that it ain't just apple with
case insensitive systems.
Post by Huge
Post by Jolly Roger
I
smell a zealot.
Standard fan-boi response to anyone who criticises Apple for anything.
standard hater response.
Eli the Bearded
2017-10-11 19:15:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Huge
I for one bought a Mac because it's "Unix inside" and Unix traditionally
has case sensitive file systems. I find the lack of it irritating.
How is it irritating? Or is it just a question of religion for you?
Traditional Unix is case sensitive and has used case distinctions in
filenames for a long time. One that bit me this year, quoting from a
man page:

make is a program designed to simplify the maintenance of other
programs. Its input is a list of specifications as to the files
upon which programs and other files depend. If no -f makefile
makefile option is given, make will try to open 'makefile' then
'Makefile' in order to find the specifications.

Having two differently cased makefiles with an explicit priority
relationship between them is very old Unix behavior. It breaks on
case-insensitive filesystems.

Older Unix conventions distinguished between .c and .C files, .z and .Z
files, and (not widely relevant now) the "mail" and "Mail" programs.
For makefiles, .[cC], and .[zZ] files, extracting files from old
archives are impacted.
Post by Jolly Roger
Nope, it works great and most people are fine with it. You are in the very
tiny minority.
Some of us are precise and wish computers to be precise, too.

Elijah
------
uses Macs for work, not by choice
Jolly Roger
2017-10-11 20:17:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Huge
I for one bought a Mac because it's "Unix inside" and Unix
traditionally has case sensitive file systems. I find the lack of it
irritating.
How is it irritating? Or is it just a question of religion for you?
Traditional Unix is case sensitive and has used case distinctions in
filenames for a long time.
I've never seen fit to uphold tradition just for the sake of tradition.
I'm not going out of my way to format Mac system drives with case
sensitivity just because some useless tradition mandates it.
Post by Eli the Bearded
make is a program designed to simplify the maintenance of other
programs. Its input is a list of specifications as to the files
upon which programs and other files depend. If no -f makefile
makefile option is given, make will try to open 'makefile' then
'Makefile' in order to find the specifications.
Having two differently cased makefiles with an explicit priority
relationship between them is very old Unix behavior. It breaks on
case-insensitive filesystems.
Somehow I've been compiling open source projects on macOS for many years
without any such breaks happening. I wonder why that is? I never use
case-sensitive files systems with macOS; so that's not it. Am I a
magician? Please go ahead and name specific open-souce projects that
supposedly fail to compile on macoS systems due to case sensitivity
issues. Inquiring minds wanna know!
Post by Eli the Bearded
Older Unix conventions distinguished between .c and .C files, .z and
.Z files, and (not widely relevant now) the "mail" and "Mail"
programs. For makefiles, .[cC], and .[zZ] files, extracting files
from old archives are impacted.
macOS ain't "older Unix", and as explained above I have yet to have
issue related to case sensitivity compiling many popular open source
packages on macOS through many years.
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Jolly Roger
Nope, it works great and most people are fine with it. You are in the
very tiny minority.
Some of us are precise and wish computers to be precise, too.
And many more of us are precise and able to cope without case sensitive
file systems.
Post by Eli the Bearded
uses Macs for work, not by choice
Obviously.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Jolly Roger
2017-10-12 14:57:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Eli the Bearded
make is a program designed to simplify the maintenance of other
programs. Its input is a list of specifications as to the files
upon which programs and other files depend. If no -f makefile
makefile option is given, make will try to open 'makefile' then
'Makefile' in order to find the specifications.
Having two differently cased makefiles with an explicit priority
relationship between them is very old Unix behavior. It breaks on
case-insensitive filesystems.
Somehow I've been compiling open source projects on macOS for many years
without any such breaks happening. I wonder why that is? I never use
case-sensitive files systems with macOS; so that's not it. Am I a
magician? Please go ahead and name specific open-souce projects that
supposedly fail to compile on macoS systems due to case sensitivity
issues. Inquiring minds wanna know!
...crickets chirping...

Thought so.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Eli the Bearded
2017-10-12 18:38:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Eli the Bearded
Traditional Unix is case sensitive and has used case distinctions in
Older Unix conventions distinguished between .c and .C files, .z and
.Z files, and (not widely relevant now) the "mail" and "Mail"
programs. For makefiles, .[cC], and .[zZ] files, extracting files
from old archives are impacted.
macOS ain't "older Unix",
And therein lies the problem.
Post by Jolly Roger
and as explained above I have yet to have
issue related to case sensitivity compiling many popular open source
packages on macOS through many years.
And because you havn't seen it, it must not exist for anyone. Got it.

This is reminding me of vi vs emacs in the 1990s.
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Eli the Bearded
uses Macs for work, not by choice
Obviously.
Less obvious is that I once ran Apple Unix by choice. It was called A/UX
then, and I had it on my Mac IIci.

Elijah
------
was playing with an open source Unix game from 1980 last year
nospam
2017-10-12 18:46:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Eli the Bearded
Traditional Unix is case sensitive and has used case distinctions in
Older Unix conventions distinguished between .c and .C files, .z and
.Z files, and (not widely relevant now) the "mail" and "Mail"
programs. For makefiles, .[cC], and .[zZ] files, extracting files
from old archives are impacted.
macOS ain't "older Unix",
And therein lies the problem.
what problem?
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Jolly Roger
and as explained above I have yet to have
issue related to case sensitivity compiling many popular open source
packages on macOS through many years.
And because you havn't seen it, it must not exist for anyone. Got it.
no, it's that it's very rare and not enough to inconvenience everyone
for what's actually poorly written software.
Jolly Roger
2017-10-12 19:04:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Eli the Bearded
Traditional Unix is case sensitive and has used case distinctions in
Older Unix conventions distinguished between .c and .C files, .z and
.Z files, and (not widely relevant now) the "mail" and "Mail"
programs. For makefiles, .[cC], and .[zZ] files, extracting files
from old archives are impacted.
macOS ain't "older Unix",
And therein lies the problem.
It's not a problem at all. It's never prevented me from getting shit
done. What's your excuse? Trolling or PEBKAC, I suspect.
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Jolly Roger
and as explained above I have yet to have issue related to case
sensitivity compiling many popular open source packages on macOS
through many years.
And because you havn't seen it, it must not exist for anyone. Got it.
My experience over the past 17 years is all the objective proof I need
that compile issues due to case sensitivity issues don't exist for the
*vast* *majority* of popular open source projects out there. Meanwhile
not one of you silly case sensitivity zealots have named a single
project that doesn't compile correctly on macOS due to case sensitivity.
While you bitch and moan about it in Apple news groups, the rest of us
get shit done and move on.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Eli the Bearded
2017-10-12 23:08:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jolly Roger
It's not a problem at all. It's never prevented me from getting shit
done. What's your excuse? Trolling or PEBKAC, I suspect.
It annoys me like a pebble in my shoe. It doesn't *keep* me from doing
stuff.
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Eli the Bearded
And because you havn't seen it, it must not exist for anyone. Got it.
My experience over the past 17 years is all the objective proof I need
that compile issues due to case sensitivity issues don't exist for the
Got it. Case closed. Must be great to win on Usenet.

Elijah
------
"make -p -f /dev/null" and count the uses of capital suffixes
Jolly Roger
2017-10-13 00:56:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Jolly Roger
It's not a problem at all. It's never prevented me from getting shit
done. What's your excuse? Trolling or PEBKAC, I suspect.
It annoys me like a pebble in my shoe. It doesn't *keep* me from doing
stuff.
Because you feel the need to create/use files with the *exact* *same*
*name* except different capitalization in the same directories so often
that it's like a "pebble in your shoe"? Really? I have to wonder: Just
how sensitive are your feet? Anyway, it's good you manage to walk
despite that disability. So congrats on that. : )
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Huge
2017-10-13 16:11:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Jolly Roger
It's not a problem at all. It's never prevented me from getting shit
done. What's your excuse? Trolling or PEBKAC, I suspect.
Standard fanboi response. Accuse anyone with an even remotely critical
opinion of Apple of of being a troll or an idiot. Or, as has happened
to me, a liar. No wonder people think Apple is a cult.
Post by Eli the Bearded
It annoys me like a pebble in my shoe. It doesn't *keep* me from doing
stuff.
Precisely.
--
Today is Sweetmorn, the 67th day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3183
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
Jolly Roger
2017-10-13 16:16:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Huge
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Jolly Roger
It's not a problem at all. It's never prevented me from getting shit
done. What's your excuse? Trolling or PEBKAC, I suspect.
Standard fanboi response.
Standard troll response.
Post by Huge
Post by Eli the Bearded
It annoys me like a pebble in my shoe. It doesn't *keep* me from doing
stuff.
Precisely.
All you've shown the rest of us is that you have incredibly tender feet.
Suck it up, snowflakes.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
nospam
2017-10-13 16:25:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Huge
Post by Jolly Roger
It's not a problem at all. It's never prevented me from getting shit
done. What's your excuse? Trolling or PEBKAC, I suspect.
Standard fanboi response. Accuse anyone with an even remotely critical
opinion of Apple of of being a troll or an idiot. Or, as has happened
to me, a liar. No wonder people think Apple is a cult.
nope. it's bashing apple when other companies do exactly the same thing.

nearly everyone does *not* want a case sensitive file system because
it's a pain in the ass and gets in the way of normal everyday tasks,
which is why both apple and microsoft do not offer that by default, but
offer the option for those who do.

you have said you "can't be arsed" to reformat as case sensitive so the
problem is entirely of your own making, not apple.
Huge
2017-10-11 21:53:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Huge
I for one bought a Mac because it's "Unix inside" and Unix traditionally
has case sensitive file systems. I find the lack of it irritating.
How is it irritating? Or is it just a question of religion for you?
Traditional Unix is case sensitive and has used case distinctions in
filenames for a long time. One that bit me this year, quoting from a
make is a program designed to simplify the maintenance of other
programs. Its input is a list of specifications as to the files
upon which programs and other files depend. If no -f makefile
makefile option is given, make will try to open 'makefile' then
'Makefile' in order to find the specifications.
Having two differently cased makefiles with an explicit priority
relationship between them is very old Unix behavior. It breaks on
case-insensitive filesystems.
Older Unix conventions distinguished between .c and .C files, .z and .Z
files, and (not widely relevant now) the "mail" and "Mail" programs.
For makefiles, .[cC], and .[zZ] files, extracting files from old
archives are impacted.
Post by Jolly Roger
Nope, it works great and most people are fine with it. You are in the very
tiny minority.
Some of us are precise and wish computers to be precise, too.
That makes you, with a certain amount of irony, a zealot, apparently.
--
Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 65th day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3183
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
Neill Massello
2017-10-13 17:48:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Empson
That leaves the question of why you think you need a case-sensitive file
system. That is not the default for Macs, and some Mac software doesn't
work on case-sensitive file systems.
It's true that few people really *need* case sensitivity, but why should
there be any case-based restrictions at the file system level? It may be
a good idea to tell users that a file with the same name (save case)
exists in a folder, but that should be handled by a warning in file
dialogs rather than by a file system prohibition.

And while case-sensitive system volumes aren't as common as, say, volume
names containing spaces, it is negligent for developers to release
software that hasn't been checked against such configurations.

Loading...